Discussion:
[css-ui] css-counter-styles or outline
(too old to reply)
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-14 19:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

At first:

"GitHub Issues are preferred for discussion of this specification. When
filing an issue, please put the text “css-counter-styles” in the title,
preferably like this: “[css-ui] …summary of comment…”. All issues and
comments are archived, and there is also a historical archive."

Please name the archive and give a hint to the mailinglist and that you
read it! (Not everyone wants accounts everywhere in the world,
definitely not for what can be said in a short email.)

It remains unclear how to set the text where (e.g. is title = subject
and is summary of comment = css-counter-styles?):

------------------

I already wrote this to the border-guys from whom you seem to inherit
rules

Your spec specifies that the outline-width is medium and the
outline-style is none. This causes the (unneccessary) extra
convention:

"Computed value: absolute length; 0 if the outline style is none."

In contrast, the property text-decoration-style defaults to solid, and
the property text-decoration-line defaults to none. This is far more
sane in two ways:

1) No neccessity for the above extra convention

2) The 'on/off-switch' for the decoration line is the line property
instead of the style property, which is far more logical from my point
of view. Because text-decoration-color is initially currentcolor,
setting text-decoration-line to, say, underline gives a nice default
underline of solid style in text color. That is good! I'd want this for
outline as well! (Even though we can argue that the initial value for
outline-color should be red.) Specify the initial value for width as
none, the initial value for style as solid and the initial value for
color as currentcolor and switching width to medium gives a nice
default outline!

3) style:none is now a redundant value and might be dropped

Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de
Florian Rivoal
2018-01-15 01:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Heuer
Hello,
"GitHub Issues are preferred for discussion of this specification. When
filing an issue, please put the text “css-counter-styles” in the title,
preferably like this: “[css-ui] …summary of comment…”. All issues and
comments are archived, and there is also a historical archive."
Please name the archive
There is a link to the archive in the text you quoted. This is
considered a good way to find it.
Post by Dennis Heuer
and give a hint to the mailinglist and that you
read it! (Not everyone wants accounts everywhere in the world,
definitely not for what can be said in a short email.)
This group deals with a very high volume of issues. We used to take
them in by email, and found that it was very hard to keep track of
everything, and that some comments got lost. We have decided to
use github as our primary system for taking in comments. That doesn't
mean github is the perfect system, but we need to have one shared
worktool to be able to work efficiently, and we picked that one.
We cannot and will not force anybody to use github if they don't
like it, and you may use any means you like to try and contact us.

However, we will not spend time writing explanations for how to contact
us in ways we do not want to be contacted in.

Writing to this mailing list is reasonably likely to work, but there is
also a risk that your comment will be overlooked because this is not
how we triage and track issues. As I presume you are interested in
getting your issues addressed, I recommend using github in the future.
Post by Dennis Heuer
It remains unclear how to set the text where (e.g. is title = subject
Github issues, as we request that you file, have a "title" field.
This is where you should write the title.

A summary of your comment means just that: you summarize what you are
writing about. If you think for example that there is a problem in the
grammar of the outline property, you would write "[css-ui] problem with
the grammar of the outline property", and then give details in the body
issue.
Post by Dennis Heuer
------------------
I already wrote this to the border-guys from whom you seem to inherit
rules
Your spec specifies that the outline-width is medium and the
outline-style is none. This causes the (unneccessary) extra
"Computed value: absolute length; 0 if the outline style is none."
In contrast, the property text-decoration-style defaults to solid, and
the property text-decoration-line defaults to none. This is far more
1) No neccessity for the above extra convention
2) The 'on/off-switch' for the decoration line is the line property
instead of the style property, which is far more logical from my point
of view. Because text-decoration-color is initially currentcolor,
setting text-decoration-line to, say, underline gives a nice default
underline of solid style in text color. That is good! I'd want this for
outline as well! (Even though we can argue that the initial value for
outline-color should be red.) Specify the initial value for width as
none, the initial value for style as solid and the initial value for
color as currentcolor and switching width to medium gives a nice
default outline!
3) style:none is now a redundant value and might be dropped
Regardless of the merits of your proposal, it is not practical to consider
changing how multicolumn works at this point. This specification has existed
for many years, has been implemented by browsers for many years, and has been
used on the web for many years.

This is very often a concern we have to deal with: changing specifications
in ways that would cause existing content to display differently would
cause lost of web sites to fail, and therefore web browsers will refuse to
make such change, even if it would be a good idea otherwise. We typically
call that "breaking the web", as in "can we change foo to bar? No, that
would break the web. Ah, forget it then".

The changes you suggest fall into that category, so I am afraid this
suggestion has to be rejected.

—Florian
Florian Rivoal
2018-01-15 02:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florian Rivoal
Post by Dennis Heuer
Hello,
"GitHub Issues are preferred for discussion of this specification. When
filing an issue, please put the text “css-counter-styles” in the title,
preferably like this: “[css-ui] …summary of comment…”. All issues and
comments are archived, and there is also a historical archive."
Please name the archive
There is a link to the archive in the text you quoted. This is
considered a good way to find it.
Post by Dennis Heuer
and give a hint to the mailinglist and that you
read it! (Not everyone wants accounts everywhere in the world,
definitely not for what can be said in a short email.)
This group deals with a very high volume of issues. We used to take
them in by email, and found that it was very hard to keep track of
everything, and that some comments got lost. We have decided to
use github as our primary system for taking in comments. That doesn't
mean github is the perfect system, but we need to have one shared
worktool to be able to work efficiently, and we picked that one.
We cannot and will not force anybody to use github if they don't
like it, and you may use any means you like to try and contact us.
However, we will not spend time writing explanations for how to contact
us in ways we do not want to be contacted in.
Writing to this mailing list is reasonably likely to work, but there is
also a risk that your comment will be overlooked because this is not
how we triage and track issues. As I presume you are interested in
getting your issues addressed, I recommend using github in the future.
Post by Dennis Heuer
It remains unclear how to set the text where (e.g. is title = subject
Github issues, as we request that you file, have a "title" field.
This is where you should write the title.
A summary of your comment means just that: you summarize what you are
writing about. If you think for example that there is a problem in the
grammar of the outline property, you would write "[css-ui] problem with
the grammar of the outline property", and then give details in the body
issue.
Post by Dennis Heuer
------------------
I already wrote this to the border-guys from whom you seem to inherit
rules
Your spec specifies that the outline-width is medium and the
outline-style is none. This causes the (unneccessary) extra
"Computed value: absolute length; 0 if the outline style is none."
In contrast, the property text-decoration-style defaults to solid, and
the property text-decoration-line defaults to none. This is far more
1) No neccessity for the above extra convention
2) The 'on/off-switch' for the decoration line is the line property
instead of the style property, which is far more logical from my point
of view. Because text-decoration-color is initially currentcolor,
setting text-decoration-line to, say, underline gives a nice default
underline of solid style in text color. That is good! I'd want this for
outline as well! (Even though we can argue that the initial value for
outline-color should be red.) Specify the initial value for width as
none, the initial value for style as solid and the initial value for
color as currentcolor and switching width to medium gives a nice
default outline!
3) style:none is now a redundant value and might be dropped
Regardless of the merits of your proposal, it is not practical to consider
changing how multicolumn works at this point. This specification has existed
for many years, has been implemented by browsers for many years, and has been
used on the web for many years.
This is very often a concern we have to deal with: changing specifications
in ways that would cause existing content to display differently would
cause lost of web sites to fail, and therefore web browsers will refuse to
make such change, even if it would be a good idea otherwise. We typically
call that "breaking the web", as in "can we change foo to bar? No, that
would break the web. Ah, forget it then".
The changes you suggest fall into that category, so I am afraid this
suggestion has to be rejected.
—Florian
Sorry, I mentioned the multicolumn spec in my response,
but your mail was about the css-ui spec. I made this mistake because
you made a similar comment about multicol, and my answers got mixed.
Please accept my apologies.

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2018Jan/0039.html

However, the logic of my answer applies to both of your comments.
Both CSS-UI and CSS-MULTICOL have been shipping in their
current form for too long to be able to make this sort of change
without breaking existing content.

—Florian
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-15 13:19:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:55:03 +0900
Post by Florian Rivoal
Writing to this mailing list is reasonably likely to work, but there
is also a risk that your comment will be overlooked because this is
not how we triage and track issues. As I presume you are interested in
getting your issues addressed, I recommend using github in the
future.
Sorry that we'll not meet!
Post by Florian Rivoal
Post by Dennis Heuer
It remains unclear how to set the text where (e.g. is title =
Github issues, as we request that you file, have a "title" field.
This is where you should write the title.
A summary of your comment means just that: you summarize what you are
writing about. If you think for example that there is a problem in the
grammar of the outline property, you would write "[css-ui] problem
with the grammar of the outline property", and then give details in
the body issue.
Still remains unclear where to put: css-counter-styles?

To be honest, what is written in the document is hardly analysable!
Post by Florian Rivoal
Regardless of the merits of your proposal, it is not practical to
consider changing how multicolumn works at this point. This
specification has existed for many years, has been implemented by
browsers for many years, and has been used on the web for many years.
This is very often a concern we have to deal with: changing
specifications in ways that would cause existing content to display
differently would cause lost of web sites to fail, and therefore web
browsers will refuse to make such change, even if it would be a good
idea otherwise. We typically call that "breaking the web", as in "can
we change foo to bar? No, that would break the web. Ah, forget it
then".
The changes you suggest fall into that category, so I am afraid this
suggestion has to be rejected.
—Florian
That is the nonsense I heard very often now here at this place. You are
at github but have no clou of versioning? The most important browsers
still support broken websites from their times of f*cking browser war.
So why you can't just define a rule like:

css: 3;

and let the rest of the www get interpreted for css21? My god, then you
could stay away from your should-we-leave-that mentality and clean up!

No, I don't accept your way here because it is stubborn and backwards
and, firstmost, illogic. Websites got broken several times now -
because of you guys (you remember the early days?) but specifically the
browser guys. And this is normal! GNOME switches regularly, KDE is a
mess, Apple just switched the core language and Windows is a
maintenance crisis. Is Windows dead?????????????

Clean up, guys! Get VERSIONING!


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de
Florian Rivoal
2018-01-16 01:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Heuer
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:55:03 +0900
Post by Florian Rivoal
Writing to this mailing list is reasonably likely to work, but there
is also a risk that your comment will be overlooked because this is
not how we triage and track issues. As I presume you are interested in
getting your issues addressed, I recommend using github in the future.
Sorry that we'll not meet!
I like email too. The group decided to move over to GitHub, so I did so too, because it is hard
to have a conversation without being where everyone is.

This mailing list is open, you can write to it. I and others will generally respond. But there's
no way to assign things to anyone, nor to mark issues as open or closed, to tag something
for discussion in an upcoming meeting, etc, so there's a risk things get lost.
Post by Dennis Heuer
Post by Florian Rivoal
Post by Dennis Heuer
It remains unclear how to set the text where (e.g. is title =
Github issues, as we request that you file, have a "title" field.
This is where you should write the title.
A summary of your comment means just that: you summarize what you are
writing about. If you think for example that there is a problem in the
grammar of the outline property, you would write "[css-ui] problem
with the grammar of the outline property", and then give details in
the body issue.
Still remains unclear where to put: css-counter-styles?
If your issue is about two specifications, you can write:
[css-ui][css-counter-styes] Lorem ipsum dolor

If you have two issues, send two mails / file two issues.
Post by Dennis Heuer
To be honest, what is written in the document is hardly analysable!
It is very unlikely that the group will move away from Github as the primary way to send feedback.
But other than that, if you have suggestions on how we could rephrase the text that explains how
to send feedback, that's very welcome. If you do have suggestions, please start a separate thread
for that topic (or file a separate github issue).
Post by Dennis Heuer
That is the nonsense I heard very often now here at this place. You are
at github but have no clou of versioning? The most important browsers
still support broken websites from their times of f*cking browser war.
I suggest you try a different style of writing. Swearing and insulting people is very unlikely to
convince anyone to listen to you.

I will continue to reply to this mail, but I will not reply to further mails if they are not more civil.
Post by Dennis Heuer
Clean up, guys!
...
Post by Dennis Heuer
you guys
...
Post by Dennis Heuer
browser guys
This group is not exclusively composed of men. Neither are the teams working on browser
implementations.

"Guys" is not an appropriate word to refer to all participants collectively. Please phrase things
differently.
Post by Dennis Heuer
css: 3;
and let the rest of the www get interpreted for css21? My god, then you
could stay away from your should-we-leave-that mentality and clean up!
No, I don't accept your way here because it is stubborn and backwards
and, firstmost, illogic. Websites got broken several times now -
because of you guys (you remember the early days?) but specifically the
browser guys. And this is normal! GNOME switches regularly, KDE is a
mess, Apple just switched the core language and Windows is a
maintenance crisis. Is Windows dead?????????????
Clean up, guys! Get VERSIONING!
We can version software, we cannot version the world. The point of a web browser is not
to have a beautiful architecture, it is to browse the web as it exists, not as we would like it
to be. The documents exist, and they need be rendered properly, regardless of how well
or how strangely they are written. If they work today, they need to continue to work.

Occasionally, it is possible to make breaking change, when the problem it solves is major,
and the breakage is very limited. But that's the exception, not the rule, and it is very hard to do,
because nobody is the boss of the web and can order everyone to update. Unless everybody
is convinced that breaking existing sites is a good idea, the change will not happen.

As I wrote in another mail, "@css: 3;" won't work. Existing browsers would discard it and follow
the usual rules of css for the rest of the stylesheet. This means that new browsers would need
to do the same, otherwise they would not be compatible with existing ones.

—Florian
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-16 02:21:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 11:00:33 +0900
On Jan 15, 2018, at 22:21, Dennis Heuer
Hello Florian,
you belong to those few guys that CC everything. I personally
consider this SPAM. Please think about it...
I keep the mailing list on CC, because that's where the discussion is
happening. I keep participants to the thread on CC, because some have
filters that ignore all mails on which they are not explicitly
mentioned, to cope with the high volume of threads when participating
in standard discussions.
The mailing list's configuration is set up to facilitate this
communication style.
You are a new participant in an established community. You are very
welcome, just like everybody is, but you may want to consider that
you should adapt your communication style to the existing community,
instead of expecting the opposite.
Best regards,
—Florian
I'm expecting a change. That is what I argue for. If change is not
possible I'll somehow cover css with sasl or lesscss, how it fits. I'm
not here to support the status quo. You can now drop me or not!

I want to change or cover css. And that's why I'm clear that css is not
the success you believe in.

Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de
Florian Rivoal
2018-01-16 03:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Heuer
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 11:00:33 +0900
On Jan 15, 2018, at 22:21, Dennis Heuer
Hello Florian,
you belong to those few guys that CC everything. I personally
consider this SPAM. Please think about it...
I keep the mailing list on CC, because that's where the discussion is
happening. I keep participants to the thread on CC, because some have
filters that ignore all mails on which they are not explicitly
mentioned, to cope with the high volume of threads when participating
in standard discussions.
The mailing list's configuration is set up to facilitate this
communication style.
You are a new participant in an established community. You are very
welcome, just like everybody is, but you may want to consider that
you should adapt your communication style to the existing community,
instead of expecting the opposite.
Best regards,
—Florian
I'm expecting a change. That is what I argue for. If change is not
possible I'll somehow cover css with sasl or lesscss, how it fits. I'm
not here to support the status quo. You can now drop me or not!
I want to change or cover css. And that's why I'm clear that css is not
the success you believe in.
I was responding privately to a private mail where you were telling me that
the way I write email is SPAM. If you do not like github and also do not like
the way people on this mailing lis respond to you, I think you are going to
have a difficult time having a discussion with this working group.

You can argue for changes to CSS, this is what this group is for. As long
as you do it politely and with good arguments, and try to understand the
arguments of other participants, there is no problem. We may agree,
we may disagree, but we can discuss.

—Florian
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-16 12:57:44 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:21:58 +0900
Post by Florian Rivoal
Post by Dennis Heuer
I'm expecting a change. That is what I argue for. If change is not
possible I'll somehow cover css with sasl or lesscss, how it fits.
I'm not here to support the status quo. You can now drop me or not!
I want to change or cover css. And that's why I'm clear that css is
not the success you believe in.
I was responding privately to a private mail where you were telling
me that the way I write email is SPAM. If you do not like github and
also do not like the way people on this mailing lis respond to you, I
think you are going to have a difficult time having a discussion with
this working group.
You can argue for changes to CSS, this is what this group is for. As
long as you do it politely and with good arguments, and try to
understand the arguments of other participants, there is no problem.
We may agree, we may disagree, but we can discuss.
—Florian
Florian, you truly believe what you write? I wrote proposals, good
arguments and were able to crack all your lies and selfishnesses. The
only responses you served were "You are welcome but should not expect
anything!", "We did this for no obvious or even logical reason but will
stick to it for eternity!" or "We doomed the world but a release would
be too costly!"

Florian, talking business phrases might make you look professional but
is a shame and will not work with me!

Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de
Alan Stearns
2018-01-16 14:37:20 UTC
Permalink
On 1/16/18, 5:09 AM, "Dennis Heuer" <***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de> wrote:

I wrote proposals, good
arguments and were able to crack all your lies and selfishnesses. The
only responses you served were "You are welcome but should not expect
anything!", "We did this for no obvious or even logical reason but will
stick to it for eternity!" or "We doomed the world but a release would
be too costly!"

Dennis,

This kind of response is inappropriate and not welcome on this list.

Proposals and technical arguments are welcome. Insults and responses with no technical content will result in having to ban you from this list.

Thanks
Levantovsky, Vladimir
2018-01-16 16:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Dennis,

1. Trying to perfect the world around you based on your own imperfect [as in 'narrow and incomplete'] view of it is a futile effort!
2. Making an effort to see a bigger picture would help.
3. Being polite and not insulting the very people you want to convince in your own superiority is a good starting point!

Regards,
Vladimir


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Heuer [mailto:***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:58 AM
To: www-***@w3.org
Subject: Re: Communication style [Was: css-counter-styles or outline]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:21:58 +0900
Post by Florian Rivoal
Post by Dennis Heuer
I'm expecting a change. That is what I argue for. If change is not
possible I'll somehow cover css with sasl or lesscss, how it fits.
I'm not here to support the status quo. You can now drop me or not!
I want to change or cover css. And that's why I'm clear that css is
not the success you believe in.
I was responding privately to a private mail where you were telling me
that the way I write email is SPAM. If you do not like github and also
do not like the way people on this mailing lis respond to you, I think
you are going to have a difficult time having a discussion with this
working group.
You can argue for changes to CSS, this is what this group is for. As
long as you do it politely and with good arguments, and try to
understand the arguments of other participants, there is no problem.
We may agree, we may disagree, but we can discuss.
—Florian
Florian, you truly believe what you write? I wrote proposals, good arguments and were able to crack all your lies and selfishnesses. The only responses you served were "You are welcome but should not expect anything!", "We did this for no obvious or even logical reason but will stick to it for eternity!" or "We doomed the world but a release would be too costly!"

Florian, talking business phrases might make you look professional but is a shame and will not work with me!

Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de



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