Discussion:
[css-writing-modes] Can't analyze a passage and find it redundantly technical
(too old to reply)
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-15 20:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I don't get the sense of this paragraph:

https://www.w3.org/TR/css-writing-modes-3/#propdef-writing-mode

The content of replaced elements do not rotate due to the writing mode:
images and external content such as from <iframe>s, for example, remain
upright, and the default object size of 300px×150px does not re-orient.
However embedded replaced content involving text (such as MathML
content or form elements) should match the replaced element’s writing
mode and line orientation if the UA supports such a vertical writing
mode for the replaced content.

To me, 'replaced' elements are gone! Why being exact on px values? Why
should boxes follow writing-mode? What about:

The writing mode does only affect text-related elements, including
embedded elements with content written in separate scripts like MathML,
if the User Agent supports this...


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de
fantasai
2018-01-15 22:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Heuer
Hello,
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-writing-modes-3/#propdef-writing-mode
images and external content such as from <iframe>s, for example, remain
upright, and the default object size of 300px×150px does not re-orient.
However embedded replaced content involving text (such as MathML
content or form elements) should match the replaced element’s writing
mode and line orientation if the UA supports such a vertical writing
mode for the replaced content.
To me, 'replaced' elements are gone! Why being exact on px values? Why
The writing mode does only affect text-related elements, including
embedded elements with content written in separate scripts like MathML,
if the User Agent supports this...
Replaced elements have a very specific technical meaning in CSS,
and this paragraph is addressing those. It lists a number of
examples to make sure that readers understand the full extent of
its implications. Your rewrite is less precise, and therefore,
not appropriate for the specification. You are welcome to write
tutorials and articles about writing mode with less precision :)
but we cannot afford to do so here.

~fantasai
CSS Writing Modes specification editor
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-15 22:56:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:10:16 -0800
Post by fantasai
Replaced elements have a very specific technical meaning in CSS,
and this paragraph is addressing those. It lists a number of
examples to make sure that readers understand the full extent of
its implications. Your rewrite is less precise, and therefore,
not appropriate for the specification. You are welcome to write
tutorials and articles about writing mode with less precision :)
but we cannot afford to do so here.
~fantasai
CSS Writing Modes specification editor
I scanned the document. Only in the reference I found a link. Could
you please turn the respective terms in the document into links to the
below address:

https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#replaced-element

Still don't understand the neccessity for the px! Is too high for me!

Still find that the term might be understandable from a very internal
and bottom-up view. However, who is reading this term the first time
can not make any sense of it! Try to choose self-explanatory terms!

Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de
fantasai
2018-01-16 20:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis Heuer
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:10:16 -0800
Post by fantasai
Replaced elements have a very specific technical meaning in CSS,
and this paragraph is addressing those. It lists a number of
examples to make sure that readers understand the full extent of
its implications. Your rewrite is less precise, and therefore,
not appropriate for the specification. You are welcome to write
tutorials and articles about writing mode with less precision :)
but we cannot afford to do so here.
~fantasai
CSS Writing Modes specification editor
I scanned the document. Only in the reference I found a link. Could
you please turn the respective terms in the document into links to the
https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#replaced-element
OK, I have committed the change to link “replaced element” to the glossary.
You can see the changes in the Editor's Draft; it will take awhile before
the publication is updated on www.w3.org, however.
Post by Dennis Heuer
Still don't understand the neccessity for the px! Is too high for me!
For the 300x150 example? It is just an example. :) There is a peculiar
rule in CSS that if a replaced element does not have intrinsic dimensions,
then we fall back to 300px * 150px. We list this example in the spec to
make it clear that the dimensions of this fallback value do not flip when
the writing mode is vertical.
Post by Dennis Heuer
Still find that the term might be understandable from a very internal
and bottom-up view. However, who is reading this term the first time
can not make any sense of it! Try to choose self-explanatory terms!
We try, but this seems to have been the best we could come up with when
the CSS2 specification was written. I think we'd be open to a change in
terms if you have one that is significantly better. (That is, everyone
agrees it is much better than the current term.) But it needs to be a
term that encompasses all of the following:

* images
* videos
* embedded documents (via <iframe>)
* MathML
* form controls
* applets
* (anything else that isn't constructed of CSS boxes and laid out with CSS)

~fantasai
Dennis Heuer
2018-01-16 22:23:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:11:52 -0800
Post by fantasai
Post by Dennis Heuer
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:10:16 -0800
Post by fantasai
Replaced elements have a very specific technical meaning in CSS,
and this paragraph is addressing those. It lists a number of
examples to make sure that readers understand the full extent of
its implications. Your rewrite is less precise, and therefore,
not appropriate for the specification. You are welcome to write
tutorials and articles about writing mode with less precision :)
but we cannot afford to do so here.
~fantasai
CSS Writing Modes specification editor
I scanned the document. Only in the reference I found a link. Could
you please turn the respective terms in the document into links to
https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#replaced-element
OK, I have committed the change to link “replaced element” to the
glossary. You can see the changes in the Editor's Draft; it will take
awhile before the publication is updated on www.w3.org, however.
Post by Dennis Heuer
Still don't understand the neccessity for the px! Is too high for me!
For the 300x150 example? It is just an example. :) There is a peculiar
rule in CSS that if a replaced element does not have intrinsic
dimensions, then we fall back to 300px * 150px. We list this example
in the spec to make it clear that the dimensions of this fallback
value do not flip when the writing mode is vertical.
Why you never get the point? It's not about this or that value. It's
about why these values at all? They are just confusing readers, making
the spec complicated. "Box won't flip" is enough...
Post by fantasai
Post by Dennis Heuer
Still find that the term might be understandable from a very
internal and bottom-up view. However, who is reading this term the
first time can not make any sense of it! Try to choose
self-explanatory terms!
We try, but this seems to have been the best we could come up with
when the CSS2 specification was written. I think we'd be open to a
change in terms if you have one that is significantly better. (That
is, everyone agrees it is much better than the current term.) But it
* images
* videos
* embedded documents (via <iframe>)
* MathML
* form controls
* applets
* (anything else that isn't constructed of CSS boxes and laid out with CSS)
~fantasai
As far is I understand, the term expresses that some element definition
gets replaced with some external box or content. One coild call this
the embedded element/source/content, the inlay element, the foreign
element/content box. I don't find this tricky...


Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Heuer
***@verschwendbare-verweise.seinswende.de

Loading...